Mahua Moitra interview: ‘When people like Saayoni turn, who do you trust?’

In a wide-ranging interview with The Indian Express, Trinamool Congress (TMC) MP Mahua Moitra weighs in on the rebellion by her parliamentary colleagues and party MLAs in West Bengal, why she is “hurt” by her fellow MP Saayoni Ghosh, and the party’s future. Excerpts:

One, greed and treachery have no limits. Second, the BJP was desperate since the drubbing on the floor of the Lok Sabha (during the debate on delimitation legislation in April), when they did not get the two-thirds majority. So, they’ve done their calculations, and by hook or by crook, they want to get another 40-50 MPs. They do not believe in getting this through elections; they want to do it through jod-tod (breaking parties).

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They have three things at their command. They have their agencies, which create fear and intimidation. Second, they will make sure nobody touches you, nobody can do business with you. They’re spreading the myth that the public is angry with Trinamool. The TMC got 2.6 crore votes and the BJP 2.9 crore votes. The difference was only 30 lakh and 30 lakh voters are under adjudication. They’re trying to do what we call in Bengali, ‘ek ghore kore dewa (ostracise)’.

* Can the rebels claim to be the ‘real TMC’?

They want to choose the Leader of Opposition (LoP) in Bengal. So, Suvendu Adhikari will be CM and the LoP. This is a new system of democracy.

In the Lok Sabha, all of us were elected because of Mamata Banerjee. Till a month ago, Kakoli (rebel MP Kakoli Ghosh Dastidar) and Satabadi (Roy) campaigned for our candidates. There is not one ounce of uncertainty about who the party is. The party is Mamata Banerjee. Everything is good about Mamata di, but she is extremely emotional and forgiving. But you are fighting a party like the BJP that is neither emotional nor forgiving. They are ruthless. Then we should also become ruthless. Loyalty has no price for them. These people (rebels) are selling out Mamata di.

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The law is clear in Subhash Desai versus the Principal Secretary of Maharashtra that you cannot create a faction or a bloc. You have to have two-thirds of the legislature party and merge with the BJP. Let all of these people, 20 MPs, merge with the BJP. Let them resign and seek a mandate on BJP tickets.

* The trigger in West Bengal was the alleged signature forgery in the letter declaring Sovandeb Chattopadhyay as the LoP. Did a mistake occur?

Ritabrata (Banerjee, the LoP) was in the CPI(M) and was thrown out of the party. He was sitting without anybody, gave us support, and we took him on and made him a Rajya Sabha MP. Big mistake. In an interview, he sang the praises of Abhishek and Mamata Banerjee. He told me that he wants to become the Labour Minister of Bengal. So, till a month-and-a-half ago, he wanted to win on a TMC ticket and become the Labour Minister.

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If the 60 MLAs who rebelled had such a big problem with Abhishek or Mamata di, they should have done what Suvendu did. He realised he would not be able to become the number two in the party and so moved to the BJP. In 2021, he defeated Mamata di, fought for the next five years and is now the CM. You can like him, or you can hate him, but there is nothing wrong with that model.

If these people (rebels) hated Abhishek and Mamata di, they could have refused to contest on Mamata Banerjee’s ticket. But they did not have the guts. If you are 60, apply for the symbol now. You can be Trinamool either if you have the symbol or if you have the leader. You don’t have the leader; you have the symbol.

Also, the law is very clear. The law says the LoP and the Chief Whip are decided by the political party, not by the legislature party. This is why we have gone to court. I am sure it will be struck down. If you don’t like Mamata or Abhishek, resign as they did in Madhya Pradesh. All 21 Congress MLAs who came with Jyotiraditya Scindia to the BJP resigned and won back on a BJP ticket.

* Kakoli Ghosh Dastidar, who is leading the rebellion among the MPs, says she was pained at the way she was removed as Chief Whip, despite a 40-year relationship with Mamata Banerjee.

You live in Barasat, which is supposed to be the heart of the crime syndicate that all of us have suffered from. We keep saying syndicate. The word came from that area. What were you doing with your eyes shut?

Also Read | As TMC crisis deepens, for BJP the real payoff may be in Parliament

You are calling up people and saying, ‘Bhupender Yadav wants to meet you’, ‘(Narendra) Modi wants to meet you.’ That’s why they’re going with you. If you call and say, ‘I, Kakoli, want to meet you’, then nobody is going to come to you.

* What did you make of the meeting of Mamata and Abhishek Banerjee with the Congress?

I was not in that room; so, I don’t know what transpired. But with recent happenings — see what happened to Meenakshi Natarajan in Madhya Pradesh and what they have done with seven AAP MPs in the Rajya Sabha — the INDIA alliance parties should put their egos aside. It is a question of survival. The combined mandate of the Opposition is more than that of the BJP. It’s just a question of getting together and fighting one-to-one. Every leader has to understand that. Otherwise, we’re all dead.

* What is the TMC’s future?

Merit and hard work matter, but loyalty is important. Some things have really hurt me. Saayoni (Ghosh) is like my child, like my sister. If anybody else left, I would feel no pain. (But) I look at her and she’s old enough to be my daughter. I really loved her like that. And I believe she has an excellent future. She has come from nothing, is a very hard worker, and is extremely talented. She connects to people and is a kind person. She has all the right values. I really saw her growing into an Opposition leader. And she’s only 33. My advice to people like that is, look, I know you’re scared, but unless we conquer fear, we conquer nothing.

Maybe it’s a combination of fear and other things. She has a father. I don’t know what it is. Because I can vouch that she’s not a disloyal, profiteering person. She’s not interested in money. She leads a fairly simple life and works all the time. Look at what the party has given her in only five years. You joined the party in 2021. You got an MLA ticket, became the national youth president, got the Jadavpur ticket in ‘24 that was Mamata di’s seat, the most prestigious seat for the party. When people like that do that (think of jumping ship), it’s very, very upsetting. Everyone has their own destiny. But still my advice to her would be, you know, overcome fear, conquer fear. There is life ahead.

* What will Mahua Moitra do next?

No party is perfect; my party is not. But as a platform to fight the fascist forces, this is the best option for me. I will stick to it … Anything else along the way, we deal with it.

* Shouldn’t the party have acted against corrupt leaders before the elections?

I agree. But like I said, when a person like Saayoni does a volte-face, who do you trust? Akhruzzaman (rebel MLA) was with me in the High Court filing the Bakrid petition (against cattle slaughter rules) on May 20. Then I see him do this. Sabina Yeasmin sat all day with me in the High Court. I introduced her to a Supreme Court lawyer and advised her what to do, as she feared she would be targeted in the Mothabari case (the detention of judges during SIR adjudication). Now, she has gone on to become the deputy leader. What do you do when people lie blatantly on your face?

Also Read | TMC fault lines in the open: 58 of 80 MLAs back rebel as Leader of Opposition

Everyone who’s gone has got something to hide. Had they gone over for the love of Modi, they should have been like Kangana. Kangana says, ‘I love Modi.’ There’s nothing wrong with that. What have these people gone for? Love for Modi, whom they hated for so long?

* Can the Cockroach Janta Party (CJP) be a viable ally for an Opposition party?

In Vijay’s party, you have over 100 MLAs who have nothing to do with politics. But the youth have voted them in. They did not even go to campaign; the campaign was run from house to house by social media. It is the first campaign of the 21st Century. With the CJP and Abhijeet Dipke, while we support them, we from the mainstream parties cannot hijack this movement. There are youth in this country who are fed up with Narendra Modi, who may not want to align with a Mamata, Mahua, or a Rahul Gandhi, but who are still against Modi and against all of this … let the youth power of this country come onto the streets against Modi. It doesn’t have to be aligned with us, but they should do it.

* Is there any truth to the rumours about Mamata Banerjee merging the TMC with the Congress?

Talk of a merger is way too premature. The TMC and the Congress will fight the 2029 election together, one-to-one, in all seats. That’s about as much we know.

* You and Kalyan Banerjee had a public fallout last year. But you’re still in a party where he’s the Chief Whip. Are you okay with that?

Kalyan da and I have had differences in the past and maybe we will have differences in the future too. But the point is that he, like me, is on the right side of the Rubicon. Kalyan da is 2,000% loyal to Mamata di. When nobody is there, Kalyan da is there. He, his son, the way they are giving their time …. he is not young; he’s 65, but he is fighting the fight and taking everyone on.

I have the greatest respect for the courage and loyalty he is showing. So if he’s my Chief Whip, I give him 10 free passes to get angry and shout at me, and the 11th time I will give it back, but I give him at least 10 free passes. During the difficult days, I will accept anything from you, but when the good times return, we may fight; no problem. Today, I am very much in line with Kalyan Banerjee and we are working together.